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Hundreds of posts about Blacks or no Blacks in the Confederate Secessionist Army. - Many people are interested in showing White Southerners as compassionate friends of Blacks. Is this REVISIONISM ??
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How come Black Confederates never fought in any battles?
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Started in June 2010
How come Black Confederates never fought in any battles?
A few posts, taken from hundreds :
Zeeboe
How come Black Confederates never fought in any battles?
03/06/10 06:20:01
Neo-rebs of all colors like to brag that there were black men who wore gray during the Civil War, but they fail to ever mention that those black men never even officially fought in any battles.
What led Johnny Reb to allowing the black man to fight in his war was after he saw how hard black troops were fighting on the other side. So he thought, why could some of them they still had in chains not do it for them? He knew that some black people were willing to go through great risks all to earn their freedom, and would do anything to get it, even fighting for the same government that wanted to keep black people slaves. But by the time they came to this conclusion, the rebs were already beat.
No more then a few dozen blacks were ever enlisted under the banner of Johnny Reb. Sixty from Richmond's Jackson hospital came under fire at Petersburg on March 11, 1865 as members of the Jackson Battalion, composed of three companies of white convalescents and two companies of black hospital workers. That was two days before the Rebel Congress authorized black enlistments.
On very rare occasions throughout the war, blacks such as those at Jackson Hospital had been pressed into combat service, often with guns at their backs and their loved ones held hostage in slavery.
No black units ever saw combat as Congressionally authorized rebel soldiers. No regiments of Confederate States Colored troops were ever formed.
Over two hundred thousand blacks had joined the Union by March of 1865. Hundreds of thousands were already free. Those still in slavery knew the rebels were whipped, and that they'd be free soon. The black people needed no favors from a near-by dead Confederacy to secure that freedom.
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libbyyell
03/06/10 11:56:56
A regiment of SC free blacks did try to join the CSA at the beginning of the war, but were turned down. The list of names is at the Confederate Museum in Richmond. Prroh is quite knowledgeable about this.
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Tom Black Confederates -- A Well Kept Secret
03/07/10 16:56:10
Longstreet519 wrote:
As usual with subjects that people take up more for the reason of heated political beliefs than the love of history, I think this post is more about semantics than finding the truth of what happened.
The proponents of the "theory" that there were thousands of voluntary black confederates argue this for one reason -- an attempt to obfuscate the significance of slavery as the primary causative factor in secession and the war. To me, a factual discussion of the actual role of African Americans in the CSA is certainly worth undertaking -- however this is only going to come from actual historians rather than Lost Cause "heritage" groups. There are reasons why free blacks joined local militias and these could be discussed on these boards -- these reasons have nothing to do with black opposition to protective tariffs.
In the North there was a vigorous debate over the use of black soldiers that resulted in the open use of such troops. There were public black leaders who were able to participate and shape, to some extent, those debates. These debates, as well as enrollment records, left a clear trail of what decisions were reached and when they were implemented.
In the South there was also a debate, but it was whites debating whites about what they thought their slaves wanted or were best suited for. There were no black voice in the debate. What should be clear to anybody with any common sense is that even in 1865 with the CSA gasping its last breaths the subject was still controversial. Nobody in favor of arming Southern blacks ever made what would seem to have been the perfect argument -- namely that they already had thousands of blacks fighting for the CSA. Not even Lee himself was aware of the alleged 3,000 black Confederate troops that supposedly marched through Fredrick, Maryland as part of his army.
Even Davis and Stephens, two rebels clearly "in the know", when they rewrote history to downplay the role of slavery, never thought to bring to light all these thousands of SECRET CONFEDERATES that would have made their case.
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Bellaray
03/07/10 19:51:39
Good job Diane.....
Now its time to dig a little deeper...some of those blacks could read and write....some of those blacks were surrendering with Union weaponry (could you imagine a proud black man with a Spencer, what an insult...no way!!!)
Why are all of today's sources from books that have been printed in the past 10 to 15 years....revisionist history at its finest.
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jpeter #16 [url] [-]
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Posts: 1542
03/08/10 07:02:18
Ghost wrote:Tom-
"The proponents of the "theory" that there were thousands of voluntary black confederates argue this for one reason -- an attempt to obfuscate the significance of slavery as the primary causative factor in secession and the war."
And this is what scares the opponents. If there were thousands of voluntary black Confederates (which is true) that people will begin to question (and rightfully so) the view that the war was about slavery.
The war was about slavery.
The Constitution fought over slavery in 1787. John Calhoun said himself that the South would go to war if slavery was abolished ...and that was 1820! Every important headline even of the 1850's was about slavery. People wrote best-selling books on slavery, important Supreme Court decisions were about slavery, people dying in Kansas was about slavery, John Brown was about slavery, political interventions in Cuba and Nicaragua were about slavery, and Lincoln's highly publicized debates were about slavery.
As president, the only reason Lincoln felt compelled to say it was about preserving the union instead of slavery was to pacify the border states... whom he could not afford to offend in 1860 and 1861.
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Hundreds of posts here that I do not copy.
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diane wrote: Bellaray,
I agree statistics can vary wildly but I would consider which of those numbers for Lee's forces at Appomattox are from reliable, scholarly sources with good reputations for accuracy. Bruce Catton, for instance, estimates the effective force Lee surrendered at about 23,000.
I'd appreciate seeing your source on the Union officer's estimate of the blacks surrendered with Forrest. Wilson, for instance, never commented on them, nor were they ever on any roster of Forrest's or Taylor's. They were not mentioned as being at Gainesville. Now there are a couple of accounts of battles in which Union opponents were surprised to see black men with Forrest's troops but no indication they considered them in any way to be soldiers.
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offlineEarthTone
03/09/10 05:19:14
diane wrote:It's back to the fear of equality syndrome. Howell Cobb, one of the fire-eaters, opposed black military enlistment saying, "If slaves will make good soldiers, then our whole theory of slavery is wrong." That theory of slavery was racial inferiority - hence Cobb's observation. After many, many years of defending this institution (and the basis upon which it was founded) they had too much invested in it to risk having it proved wrong. And it was proved to be wrong when slaves made good Union soldiers.
As I've mentioned before, I'm not so doctrinaire on the subject of black Confederate combatants/soldiers, as to think there might not have been at least some of them.
The numbers I hear most are that there were hundreds of them, to perhaps several thousand.
Let's say the CSA had 3,500 black combatants. There were perhaps 3.5 million slaves and free blacks in the CSA states in 1860... so if there were 3,500 black combatants, that would mean 0.1% of the black population were fighters... that's within the "anything's possible" range.
Having said that, it's clear that a combination of military prohibitions; prevailing racism and other social issues; and the reluctance of slave owners to lose property to war; made the occurrence of black combatants an exceptional event. I put black Confederate fighters in the same category as Sherman's 30 acres and a mule order and the Corwin Amendment: illuminating non-events.
I find it interesting that in the CSA Congress's discussions of the Negro Soldier Law, as well as discussions by military people like Cleburne and Lee, the existence of black Confederate combatants - such as in state militia - is never mentioned. Meanwhile, the presence of colored troops in the Union forces was mentioned often. It's clear that blacks-in-gray soldiers weren't on the radar for CSA political and military folks... most likely because, there were none to appear on the radar.
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Diane, you raised an interesting point earlier. You mentioned that Forrest had offered freedom to the slaves who served for him.
And both Cleburne and Lee said that slave enlistment had to be tied to their manumission, in order to be effective.
I wonder how many black combatants, if there were any, were offered their freedom in return for fighting for the CSA? There were so few of these combatants in the first place; and many slaves were not literate enough to leave a record of their experience; that these types of records may be impossible to come by. But it would make for an interesting investigation.
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diane
Earth Tone,
That would indeed be an interesting study. There were small numbers of slaves and free blacks who fought for the Confederacy. There is, for example, a monument to loyal slaves and Catawbas at Ft. Mill in Columbia, SC - it has a couple of my relations mentioned on it. These people fought for the Confederacy and to protect the plantations while the white men were gone. For some it was better the known devil than the unknown. And there were some free blacks who owned slaves and there were Indian planters - nothing was completely cut and clear. But I should think battalions of colored troops to be fantastic.
Both Lee and Cleburne knew slavery was going the way of the passenger pigeon and so recommended enlisting the slaves and making it pay for them to do so. Lee, because he had slaves who had lived generationally on Arlington, knew many slaves considered their plantations as much their homes as the masters did. If they would be free and able to remain near their birthplaces and families, it would be a strong incentive to fight for the South. Forrest, for his part, was protecting his investment and preventing his slaves from being used against him. He didn't include their families - wives and children - which insured (if the South won) that even though they were free most would return to his plantation. (Half of them did so, after the war.) And, of course, any able-bodied man who said, "Well, no thanks massa, I'll just stay here and look after the place for you" would be punching his ticket to a swamp in Louisiana. (After the war, nobody stuck up for them more than Forrest, who protected them and saw that they received the same care white vets received.)
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Tom
03/09/10 09:49:39
diane wrote:Earth Tone,
That would indeed be an interesting study. There were small numbers of slaves and free blacks who fought for the Confederacy. There is, for example, a monument to loyal slaves and Catawbas at Ft. Mill in Columbia, SC - it has a couple of my relations mentioned on it.
David Blight specifically mentions the Fort Mill monument in "Race and Reunion" (page 288). It was sponsored by a former CSA officer and "the richest man in the area." Blight writes:
"The idea of faithful slave and mammy monuments had only begun its career of inspiration in Lost Cause circles. Indeed, beginning as early as 1905, the UDC carried on a campaign for nearly two decades to erect mammy memorials in every state, and lobbied Congress for a national mammy memorial in Washington D.C. Support for mammy monuments was widespread within the UDC; many elite white women believed that they 'must remember the best friend of their childhood...'"
These monuments, IMO and Blight's, probably are most important for what they say about the beliefs of whites in the South at the turn of the century.
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